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 The Planes of Existence

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Electric Touch
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PostSubject: The Planes of Existence   12/9/2013, 10:32 am

reality is a lot more than what you experience.

for the average person reality is this life, it's his work, it's this world, this solar system, this galaxy. what happens here is real.
yet as you expand your awareness you become conscious to many great things, which is how one comes to find out what i like to call the full reality, which is really creation itself.

we use the Planes of Existence as a way of explaining how reality is "built". our current plane is what most of us call the physical plane, which is composed of this gross matter. the physical plane is what most of us humans consider the only reality - my job, my body, my world, my galaxy and so on, pretty much what every person knows about. from lack of awareness we ignore the whole of creation by being only conscious to a fraction of it.

Every plane has its own rate of vibration and it is the various rates of vibration which "divide" the planes, those who are with higher vibration (as in a faster vibration) are considered "above" us (in vibration not in physical height) and those with lower vibration (slower) are considered "below" us.

Keep in mind that Magick is ahead of science so I can see why most of you who's hearing this for the first time would have a problem believing all this. Now vibration is something known to our own modern science (although there's still a way to go), they thought an atom, which is in constant movement and vibration, was the smallest of particles to only find it is composed of even smaller particles (electrons, ions, etc) which are in a state of rapid motion rotating and vibrating. There is always something more, something deeper, and eventually they found out that matter, isn’t really physical, In fact nothing is physical, it is actually an energy force vibrating at a slow rate.
these planes which im talking about are simply the continuation of that vibratory state in which science havent found out about yet.

Some would categorize the planes and say that there are 7 main planes each divided or 10 main planes each divided etc. I rather not make that division from lack of experience and because ultimately the planes are intertwined, they blend with each other, each affecting the other, there isn’t really a division, it is only a means to explain the phenomenon. That is also why the division is hard to pinpoint and different with each person you ask.

Along with this each of the planes has their own "rules" for instance, physics would be the research of the laws of the physical plane, but those same rules would not apply, fully or at all, per say on a different plane.

Example of this would be the astral plane / spirit world which is considered higher in frequency and is the home of many entities.  This plane is NOT physical, while in this plane the laws of gravity do not apply thus you tend to float over instead of walking.
Each plane has its own rules like I said, and the astral since is greatly composed of thoughts and emotions (and in which the law of attraction seem to manifest much quicker than the physical plane) tends to be limited only by your own imagination. To put it lightly, you can do pretty much whatever you want over there.
(No I'm not talking about dreaming or lucid dreaming)

I personally don’t have too much information about the planes so I rather not spry it out too much, they usually say the higher you go the weirder it gets. From the example of the astral plane you can probably imagine why.
We are so used to this plane that a few planes above seems unreal, how do you think one would react going even further?


Any of you who has more experience of knowledge about this subject, please feel free to corret or add any information.




"Nothing rests, everything moves, everything vibrates"
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PostSubject: Re: The Planes of Existence   1/14/2014, 6:07 pm

Sorry for the late entry Electric. Great article and very detailed. You have explained quite a bit and covered many of the important parts of planar information.

Raising and lowering your vibration can affect your own reality. Raising your vibration leads to positive endeavors, while lowering can have the opposite. We have all experienced this. In the grand scheme of things (at least from what I have gathered), this is a universal concept that resonates on multiple levels. As we raise our vibration, we can raise to a higher plane, such as with astral projecting.

There are several cultures and backgrounds that explain how the planes work and what the number of planes are. From the 31 planes of Buddhism to the 7 planes of Rosicrucian. Each group aspires to their own paradigm of an other worldly view. This makes no particular view correct or wrong, just that each has their own map of how its done (if you get my drift). Anyway, the most popular is the 7 planes of existence, with most of the planes being divided in to 7 spheres or separate realms. The highest of course is the plane of the One (or God, Goddess, etc) from which all the other planes have emanated or folded out from. Next in series is the Divine Plane, where Souls are born. Next is the Spiritual Plane, home to many spiritual beings. Next is the Unity Plane, where the karmic wheel interacts with various souls attempting to shell of the entanglement of the ego. Next is the Mental Plane where thought embodies energy. Next is the Astral Plane which of course you know from projecting or from reading about projecting. Next is the Material Plane, which you definitely know. Then there are some noted sub-planes on each, one such is the Ethereal Plane, which is a mirror of physical with astral qualities.

As Electric was saying about laws and interpretation. Each plane is bound by its own laws, but they shift as you go higher or lower. Some theorize that there are less laws as you travel higher, which would seem to fit the scale. The closer to God you get, the more you are, etc.

Everyone's perception is limited by the Physical, when we are actually Spiritual Beings. We are only in a vessel. We do have the potential to rise to higher levels, but are brought down by lower vibrations of our own design.

Taking a look at the 7 planes has given rise and reference to many occult paths. The goal to get back to the One or to become One. Taking a journey through the 7 levels is very similar to completing an occult training path. First you learn how raise your vibration and manipulate the astral, you learn to influence the mental, you shell off the ego, you access the collective for spiritual knowledge and experience, you access the divine for spiritual knowledge and experience, and then you become one with the One. Taking a look at from this view point might shine some light on your own training path. Is the journey actually on the exterior or is it really on interior?

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PostSubject: Re: The Planes of Existence   1/16/2014, 7:39 am

interesting, never heard of that division, who does it belongs to? or is it from your own experience?
personally im really interested to know if theres a lower plane than the physical, or maybe there are only the sub divisions.
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PostSubject: Re: The Planes of Existence   2/13/2014, 10:58 pm

Belated thank you for the information, since I was the one who initially requested this.


The idea of higher planes having to do with vibration is very interesting. Vibration, as Electric pointed out (erroneously, but he had the gist of it), is an important concept in physics. You can think of particles as 0 dimensional points, but you can also think of them as waves. These waves vibrate, and their frequency corresponds to the particle’s energy.


When the wave/particle’s frequency reaches a certain point, though, it is said to have Planck energy. That is the maximum energy a particle can have, because at that point the wave simply can’t vibrate any faster. It’s a limit not unlike the speed of light (in fact they are intimately related).
Planck energy is a problem because there is more than Planck energy in the universe. That’s a problem because there is overwhelming evidence for the Big Bang, which posits that the universe began as a point particle. As I’ve just said, point particles can’t have more than Planck energy. So there is this era in the history of the universe where the universe was so small and had such energy density that it defied the laws of physics. Physics breaks down at this point

.
Science works like this: when nature conflicts with our theories…when our theories break down, we modify them until they work. Newtonian mechanics breaks down at high speeds, so along came Einstein with Relativity. Mystics give scientists shit for this: they say that our theories are only approximations, but that they know the truth; as you say “magic is ahead of science”. Our theories are approximations, but these approximations improve over time, and the limit as time goes to infinity is the truth, a perfect approximation.


I’ll admit, your bit about vibrations is clever, but I don’t think any mystic has realized the implications, since they aren’t willing to think scientifically about this. Let me explain:
The reason that we can’t comprehend any level of energy above Planck energy is because when a particle transcends Planck energy, it crosses into another/higher plane. This Planck-stuff is the border between our plane and the next one up. The reason that our physics can’t comprehend this is because, like I said, our theories are approximations at best. The modern laws of physics are an approximation that only works in this plane, just as Newtonian physics is an approximation that only works at low velocities and masses.


Like I said, science is about refining our theories so that they are better approximations. If we take these higher planes into account, we can refine physics so that it works in all planes, not just the material plane. This would allow us to comprehend what happened before Planck Epoch—understanding how the universe was created. Qualitatively, if I’m right this implies that the physical world and the next higher plane where one and the same until the Planck Epoch when they split. This sounds a lot like something called symmetry breaking, which is how the four fundamental forces arose. Understanding the process of symmetry breaking is what allowed physicists to unify three out of four of the fundamental forces into the Standard Model. Gravity hasn’t yet been unified with the other three, and unifying gravity is a hot topic in the community. I’m willing to bet that taking into account this higher plane and the symmetry breaking that occurred in at the Planck Epoch would illuminate the problem of gravity. That’s why I’m not surprised that the laws of gravity work differently in higher planes, as you say they do.


Alchemy, as you probably know, is the foundation of modern chemistry. Alchemy was pretty great…alchemists founded basic techniques of chemistry and discovered a number of elements. But when alchemy was quantified…when it was explained with math…when alchemists started relying on experiment and math/logic instead of superstition and divine illumination—that’s when it became really powerful. That’s what I want to do with your magic. Your magic is like alchemy…I want to turn it into something better, something scientific. I want to unify magic and physics, which sounds impossible, but until 10^-43 seconds after the Big Bang, they were the same thing. I’m certain that this union will advance both fields.


Unfortunately I can’t do that because I’m a lowly freshman whose mathematically knowledge ends at calculus III. But I’m learning; currently, I’m majoring in physics. It might take me many years of diligent study, but eventually I will be able to refine the theory state it formally and mathematically.
In short, I’m very excited. I’d like to learn as much as I can about planes, so I can maybe make some progress with this theory qualitatively. I can’t thank you enough for your information…but is that all there is, or is there more to learn?
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PostSubject: Re: The Planes of Existence   2/17/2014, 6:38 pm

Interesting, as I was first reading your post, I was wondering if you even knew what you were talking about. The reason for this is because I am a Mathematics Major myself, possibly thinking a minor in Physics. I may be a Mystic, but I process everything through some sort of logical sense. Otherwise I wouldn't be where I am today.

It is possible to unify both fields. There are problems that come from that though. I'm not discouraging you, I'm just relaying prior findings. Issues develop from the beholder. Magick is not something to be approximated like a theory can be. However, there are certain standards and laws that make sense or are universally accepted, but it all comes back to the beholder. All magical approximations can fail with the set mentality of failure in the mind of the beholder. Now that can be an approximation itself.

I provided you with a general overview of some various views on the planes. What else would you like to know? Anything specific, or just more?

@Electric: The one mostly explained was based on the Rosicrucian System. It became popularized by the New Age Movement. Since then it has been written about by many metaphysical authors/groups, etc.
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PostSubject: Re: The Planes of Existence   2/18/2014, 7:22 pm

Do I know what I was talking about? Well I'm hardly an expert, but I think I have my facts straight. I'm not at all good with math. It doesn't come naturally like it does to some people, but I'm a firm believer in neural plasticity, and I'm starting to think more like a mathematician. Also, if it seemed like I was implying that you can't be a mystic and a scientist, I wasn't. Like I said, since magic and science are two different, un-unified disciplines, its perfectly valid to believe in both.

When you say that the laws of magic all come back to the beholder, do you mean that it's subjective? That magic works a bit differently for different people?

Regardless of whether it's possible to unify magic and physics, I'd like to know more about planes. Specificlaly, I'd like to know where this knowledge came from (or is it so old that we've forgotten?). I need something like a textbook but for magic/esoteric cosmology...something that will take me through the minutia step by step. And I don't want to be "that guy", but is there any proof of this? i.e. tribes on opposite sides of the world with no contact with each other that believed the same things about esoteric cosmology? Is there anyone in mainstream science who dipping their toe into these waters, maybe in the field of Noetics?

Any book recommendations along those lines would be appreciated. I'll look into the Rocicrucian System.
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PostSubject: Re: The Planes of Existence   2/19/2014, 8:39 pm

YESS !!

very good.

first of all, dont want to point this out so egoistically, but i really dont see what i said wrong, as you first pointed out in your post.

dont get me wrong, i never said they are two, they are actually one and the same, as you said, i also believe that one day science would reach as far into the field which we now call magick, that it will continuously improve to eventually reach there and beyond, and it might be that when that time comes they would still call it science, im just pointing out that we have that knowledge right now, and science just wont acknowledge it, at least i do hope that those on the top of things do know of it, or some of it.

are we doomed?
will these two always be apart?
cant a scientist be also an artist?
of course they can! of course you can bring the two together!
i've been walking towards that thought myself, in my own way. your way of thinking is advanced than most of the average people these days, to strive to be all and not a specific, not just a scientist but also an artist and a singer and a mystic and so on and on - for these are the masters.
what you might have missed is that in a way the ones who choose to train and learn all these are also scientists, scientists to the art of magick, which is the art of discovering the whole of reality, which is really what our modern science is trying to do, is it not? it is just keeping itself aware to this plane alone.

as for Alchemy.. youve got that one wrong..
when most of us hear of alchemy we remember something around what you said, that it was simply before chemistry, or something about transmuting steel into gold, changing one material into another.
the truth about Alchemy is that it wasnt the art of transmuting one material to another, but that it was much older, a mental art, of transmuting one's mental state to another, changing the self and the environment through mental means.

is it subjective? no and yes, a large part of magick deals with your thoughts, so it can seem  conflicting from time to time. it has a lot to do with belief (not in a god but in one's self), it is to reach a point where you hack subjectivity in such an objective way that it becomes true, lol i feel like im making this explanation only more complicated ^^..

i have something nice i wrote that might help put things into prospective. Dramega, why does my B.W.F article always seems to get lost in the site? -.-
couldnt find it, let me know if you see it, if not.. ill post it again ..

ill help you as much as i can, but how much would you do to find out? you must understand you cant just learn about one field without the other if you want to unite them, how strong is your Will? how far are you willing to go Draemer?

tell me, what is the best way to learn? to gain knowledge?



should we show him that book Dramega? ^^
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PostSubject: Re: The Planes of Existence   2/19/2014, 8:56 pm

" ’ll admit, your bit about vibrations is clever, but I don’t think any mystic has realized the implications, since they aren’t willing to think scientifically about this. "

thats probably true, not all of them will, but at one point or another they should, or maybe thats how you recognize a good one at least. a good "mystic" will understand and relate between the two. a large part of "the art" is to be objective.
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PostSubject: Re: The Planes of Existence   2/20/2014, 12:14 am

"they thought an atom, which is in constant movement and vibration, was the smallest of particles to only find it is composed of even smaller particles (electrons, ions, etc)"

ions are just charged atoms, not subatomic particles. And the vibration of atoms is just thermal energy, which doesn't have to do with the vibrating particles I was talking about, I don’t think. Sorry to nitpick!

I’m a scientist (well, science student) and an artist! Art can be broken down to a science...that’s why they call it color-THEORY and compositions-THEORY. I approach art very scientifically. And likewise, I find that creativity/artistry helps me in science. Einstein would agree that imagination is more important than cold analysis.

In science, it matters a lot where that knowledge comes from. Scientist are not going to accept your knowledge unless you can back it up with proofs. Besides that, science has become a bit of a doctrine, so that they won’t accept your knowledge wouldn’t surprise me. That’s changing with the field of Noetics, which I mentioned. Check it out: http://noetic.org/

I’ve read up a bit more on alchemy, and I see what you’re saying. I still think that chemistry is better. Besides the fact that given us more knowledge, chemistry can be just as spiritual as alchemy. Every scientist will tell you that their research will have positive applications that will benefit mankind for generations…but at least for me, the primary thing that drives me to study science is because the universe is interesting and I want to learn more about it; I want knowledge for knowledge’s sake. It’s very spiritual, almost like a form of worship. In short, we all want to feel fulfilled and enlightened, and I don’t think it matters how we attain that.

I’ve cut out mindless entertainment like TV and internet from my life, so I have plenty of time to study this stuff, and I have the willpower.
And yes, you should absolutely show me that book, whatever it is.
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PostSubject: Re: The Planes of Existence   2/21/2014, 6:57 am

still havent answered my question though..
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PostSubject: Re: The Planes of Existence   3/2/2014, 2:11 pm

what is the best way to learn? to gain knowledge?
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PostSubject: Re: The Planes of Existence   3/2/2014, 9:00 pm

A good way to gain knowledge is to rapidly change your beliefs as they are disproven. A good way to gain knowledge is by positing theories, then use them to make predictions, and then valid the theories by seeing if your predictions are true. Another way: by testing the strength of your theory by trying to disprove it yourself. To gain knowledge, one must remain skeptical, because if one has unquestioning belief in their theories, then they will have no reason to test them. It’s also important not to be afraid of being wrong. Fear of error prevents us from looking foolish, but it makes it impossible to believe in anything, which gives you nothing to test. A good way to gain knowledge is through reductionism: reducing the complexity of nature to something simple that we can use logic and math with.

Those are all good ways of gaining knowledge. Speaking very broadly, the best way to gain knowledge, which everything that I just wrote is predicated on, in by keeping an open mind, since that allows you to be creative, and prevents you from automatically dismissing an idea.
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PostSubject: Re: The Planes of Existence   3/3/2014, 8:26 am

all true, although I would take an objective point of view over a skeptical one.

the best way to learn that i found is through experience.
you can read about it as much as you like but when you actually do it is when you understand it the most, doesnt matter how much you read about riding a bicycle, actually riding it would give you the best understanding, the same would go for cooking or anything else, the theory and being actually in the field are different in the knowledge you gain from them.

that is why i ask Dramega of the book. at a certain point, no matter how much you read about all this, youll have to dive in and experience it to really understand it. so even if you have read a lot about it, reading some books, such is that one, might not make sense, maybe youll understand some of it, maybe youll think you do but you really wont grasp the whole thing, in other cases you would cast it away as stupid or insane as much once probably did in similar cases.

it wont make you crazy, i just wouldnt wont you to get a wrong impression about it.
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PostSubject: Re: The Planes of Existence   3/6/2014, 6:38 pm

I was implying the possibility that you might not know what you're talking about, given our backgrounds. Plus, almost anyone can work google. I was being a bit sarcastic as well in regards to the dual minded concepts of a Mystic vs. Scientist. I understand where your coming from on most levels. In a way, we have similar concepts from what I have gathered so far. The only difference is that you hail from one side of the spectrum, while I hail from the other side. I have went to the middle and made peace with the duality. Now you are attempting yours on some personal level or another. Sorry for being cryptic/metaphorical, it is just apart of my nature.

Magick/metaphysics/supernatural/ki/ any of the aspects that fit in to those genres are subjective. They also cannot be. It is paradoxical in one instance and makes perfects sense in another. I think to best explain would to lay down some Psycho-babble first. If you have ever read in to the collective unconscious, or psychological theories that extend from that with placebo effect, herd behavior or contagion theory, then the following will make sense. The mind is a very powerful tool, controlling facets on one's own reality (take that meaning however you want). When you are a child, the mind has unlimited potential to imagine and compute various without the connection to higher brain function. However, we are hardwired and programmed through various ways (parents, media, experience) and that potential shrinks over time. When we do connect to higher brain function it is hard to get past years of layered programming. Just about all forms of metaphysical study, no matter there incarnation seek to remove these layers of programming and get your mind back to that unlimited potential. There are various methods and techniques that are picked up or down along the way (divination, evocation, sigils, etc). This is the root of the craft. However, different orders and different cultures have adopted different methods. That is why magick is and isn't subjective. The overall goal is the same, but the method is different. As an example, a universal aspect of magick is the seeking of the true will via a gnosis state (blank mind, no thought, etc). There are two main trees that people follow to achieve this inhibitory (meditation, gazing, fasting) and excitatory (drugs, dancing, chanting). Individuals find what works for them in their own personal craft. When an order or group forms after finding some facet of knowledge they form a (herd), thus inciting her behavior. Others join and that method of their group becomes popular and rampant, although not all may have been meant for it, but some will adapt. That is why you have different orders achieving the same thing on opposite sides of the globe. Same goal, different method.

The best way to experience this stuff, is of course to learn yourself. However, that is up to you. As far I know, the origin to this type of stuff is extremely debatable. I have heard several creation type stories dealing with magick floating around the forums back in the day. Realistically though, it would have had to have developed as man developed, tribal = sigils for better hunting, agricultural era = fertility gods and rituals, civilized eras = religious rites, etc. As man developed so did the aspects of the metaphysical at least up until a certain point. By that I mean, when a pinnacle was reached the methods reached a tipping point and from then on it has been copied or adapted to fit the time period. I'm not sure when, but this is something I think on from time to time.

As for proof, that is what you make of it. What is proof to you? A psychic bending a spoon or starting a fire, or utilizing sigils and rituals to transform your life.

Mainstream science, just about anyone in the quantum field could count on some level.

If you want to see that book, its just a large document containing most of our metaphysical info from our old. Most of it useful, some of it kind of out there such as radical ki, but it works for energy manipulation. I don't have it on me, but all of that info is located on our site.

http://guardiannetwork.weebly.com/

Feel free to browse through it. In your case, you'll probably find the Essence of Magick Section useful.

Electric explained it pretty well, but I'll drop my two cents. Alchemy was the process of refining one's soul (much like I stated earlier via methods). However the physical processes of transmutation of metals made it noted. Chemistry is derived from that aspect, the physical application of Alchemy. It does grant physical knowledge to the world, but refining of one's soul/will/etc has been lost to the masses.

Electric, I believe you'll have to post your article again, I thought I posted it. Sorry about that. If you have any issues, I'll see if I still have it in the archives when I get home.

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PostSubject: Re: The Planes of Existence   3/18/2014, 10:11 am

wasnt the book i was talking about but you should probably start reading there, along with practicing meditation and energy manipulation.
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PostSubject: Re: The Planes of Existence   5/27/2014, 4:28 pm

The book he was talking about was the Kybalion. Here is a link.

http://www.hermetics.org/pdf/kybalion.pdf
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